Friday, May 2

Bumper Witness

My old car wouldn't fit in my dinky garage, so we bought a new one. I got a 2005 PT Cruiser with 35,000 miles for the the bargain price of $7500! (Kelley Blue Book was $10,000min. and dealers were selling the same car for $13,000) Awesome deal, eh? Thank you , Lord!

So, now I am on the hunt for new bumper stickers. My old car's read "Many religious People, Few real Christians. Why RU Real? and our church phone #" and one also that read "Real Christians know that Abortion and Homosexuality are Sin" I got flipped off, honked at, and cut off on the freeway because of that one. One time a guy driving next to me wrote on a piece of paper that I was a ****ing hater. I just waved. The bumper stickers aren't hateful, just truthful and people hate that.

Anyway, the church ran out of bumper stickers so my hubby and I came up with a couple on our own. The PT has room on the back for at least 9 bumper stickers! lol I put one on the other day that always leads to witnesses in the store parking lot. "Ex-Lutherans for Christ" People always ask what that means so I explain the difference about water baptism paying for sins, keeping the commandments to go to heaven, repenting for salvation verses Christ paying for your sins , Him being the only way, and that you'll never repent of all sins, ect.

Back to the ones we made up. Can you guys vote on them? Or let me know what you think.
My church made one more that read. "They murdered 50 million babies and now they can't figure out marriage. Where are all the real Christians?" I don't care for that one, because an unbeliever may think that I am saying a real Christian wouldn't have an abortion or that they would know what marriage is supposed to be. But a Christian can still do bad things. Duh, we do! We still sin every day. We are supposed to do better. We are supposed to sin less, but not every Christian is a disciple. There are baby Christians on one end of the spectrum and mature, bond servants on the other end. There are even what the bible calls fleshly, worldly, and dead Christians. But they are still Christians if they truly believe God died and paid for the debt they owe to God for their sins...

There I go babbling again!

#1- "God died for the ungodly. That's you and me."

#2- "I have salvation, not probation. How about you?"
(could read "Do you have salvation or probation? God died for all, not all
but ___!"

#3- "The nation who God is the Lord shall be blessed"

I think I'm going to try and make the bumper stickers using a kit I saw at Office Depot. I don't know how well it'll work, but that's the plan.


ChRlswfe4Jesus said...

#1 I think would be confusing to people who do not understand your line of thinking.

#2 Would also be very confusing to many.

So I vote for #3


try2bAsunbeam said...

How about "For God so loved the world, He testified that its deeds were evil..."
speaking against all the compromise in the world?
How are they confusing?
The Bible says God died for sinners, those who were sick, not the healthy...
I can see why the salvation not probation one might be confusing to some, but it would be a confersation starter like the other one is...

try2bAsunbeam said...


And thanks, Dawn, for the feedback :) Love ya!

Sharon Brumfield said...

Well I probably like the last one best.
I grew up in a Church that was fire and brimstone. He was a God who was just waiting to beat you over the head with your wrong.
It took awhile before I really got to know the LOVE side of Him.

The bumper sticker that meant a lot to me as a Christian simply said--


I had been in the store and I was having a horrible time. I told Him I just needed to hear Him.
As I was about to pull out of my parking place....a car pulled in in front of me and this was on the license plate on the front of the car.

srr1954 said...

I saw an "Ex-Lutherans for Christ" bumper sticker the other day and, being an orthodox Lutheran, it disturbed me, so I searched the Internet and came upon your site. It appears you are confusing Lutheranism with Romanism based on your statements: "water baptism paying for sins, keeping the commandments to go to heaven, repenting for salvation verses Christ paying for your sins , Him being the only way, and that you'll never repent of all sins, ect." Aside from the first point, "water baptism paying for sins", which scripture clearly teaches and the vast majority of Christianity has confessed from the earliest days of the church in the ecumenical creeds, Lutherans reject all the rest. We believe that there is nothing we do to in any way merit salvation. Our salvation is dependant ENTIRELY on what Christ did for us, and it is the Holy Spirit who works faith in our hearts through "water and the word". These are the means by which He comes to us. We are free, of course, to reject Him. But in no way is there any good in us to merit salvation. We do not "find" Christ or come to Christ in our sinful state, it is He who comes to us. This is what all true Lutherans believe.

try2bAsunbeam said...

So in a nutshell, you just said it is Christ plus water. A true Lutheran believes you if you are not baptized you are not saved. Just as the Galatians believed Christ plus circumcision. The Bible clearly teaches that it is faith alone that saves. That if a person believes and nothing else, he is saved. The theif on the cross was saved without baptism. As it was with Abraham Issac and Jacob, his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. If salvation included being water baptized for the remission of sins, Paul would never have said he thanked God he baptized none of the people he was speaking to in Acts...There has to be more than one baptism. The word is a verb or adverb meaning "immersed". There is a baptism of fire, of teaching, and of water. Not all baptism is water. Taking the bible as a whole, a person can see that, but by what we are taught (or at least how I was taught) was with one or two verses which support what Luther taight. Can you show me one verse where a baby was baptized? Why are babies baptized? Because Luther taught that the water saved, with the blood. That is adding to the gospel, to the blood of God paying for our sins, which Galatians says nulifies the gospel...
Thankyou for your post and the willingness to share you thoughts. I pray you look into this further. As we will be judged based on the whole Word of God, not just what we know of it...

srr1954 said...

If you read what I said carefully, you will find that I said that water (Baptism) and the word are the means by which the Holy Spirit comes to us. We are free to reject Him. In no way do Lutherans believe that you cannot be saved without baptism. Allow me to quote Luther's Large Catechism, Part IV,31: " alone makes the person worthy to receive profitably the saving, divine water. Since these blessings are presented here and promised through the words in and with the water, they cannot be received in any other way than by believing them with the heart (Romans 10:9)." However if you say you are a Christian and refuse to be baptized, which is commanded by God, I would have to question your faith. Judging from your comments I am assuming you are a Baptist or some offshoot of that church. I will not try and argue theology with you since we will not solve what 500 years of division has not solved. However I will respond to your specific questions. Regarding infant baptism, are not infants part of "all nations"? Matthew 28:19. Why are babies baptized? It is the means by which the Holy Spirit comes to them. I assume you believe that all of scripture is the word of God. Then how do you explain the following verses: Ephesians 5:25-26, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Luke 3:21-22, I Peter 3:20-21, Titus 3:5, Romans 6:3-6, Acts 2:38, I Corinthians 6:11, I could go on, and I am well aware that the word baptism in the original Greek can be used in other ways, but these verses are referring to The Baptism commanded by God. I just leave you with one more thought, the church has confessed from the earliest centuries that there is "one baptism for the remission of sins" (The Nicene Creed, Council of Nicea, 325 A.D.). It was the Baptists and others who departed from this universal creed at the time of the Reformation. Yes, there are thousands of different and personal interpretations of scripture, but Lutherans confess the orthodox faith of the early church. I am saved only by the blood of Christ, not because of anything good in me, and I trust you believe the same.

try2bAsunbeam said...

Allow me to quote you-"Allow me to quote Luther's Large Catechism, Part IV,31: " alone makes the person worthy to receive profitably the saving, divine water." Right here Luther say the water saves.

The following declarations are quoted from LUTHER’S SMALL CATECHISM, Concordia publishing, 1971


251. Infants, too are to be baptized--

B. Because Holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith;
C. Because infants, also, can believe.
Infants can believe?? That's ridiculus!

What does Baptism give or profit? It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Baptism gives salvation?
254. ...By His suffering and death Christ has indeed earned these blessings for us; baptism, however, is a means by which the Holy Ghost makes these blessings our own. (baptism is a means of grace.)

257. ...The word of God places great blessings into baptism; and through faith, which trusts this word of promise, we accept the forgiveness, life, and salvation offered in baptism and make these blessings our own.

The following statements are quoted from LUTHER’S WORKS, Vol. 35, Word and Sacrament, l, Fortress Press, 1981:


11. Now if this covenant did not exist, and God were not so merciful as to wink at our sins, there could be no sin so small but it would condemn us. For the judgment of God can endure no sin. Therefore there is no greater comfort on earth than baptism. For it is through baptism that we come under the judgment of grace and mercy, which does not condemn our sins but drives them out by many trials. There is a fine sentence of St. Augustine which says, “Sin is altogether forgiven in baptism ; not in such manner that it is no longer present, but such a manner that it is not imputed.” It is as if he were to say, “Sin remains in our flesh until death and works without ceasing. But so long as we do not give our consent to it or desire to remain in it, sin is so overruled by our baptism that it does not condemn us and is not harmful to us. Rather it is daily being more and more destroyed in us until our death.”

The bible makes it clear that Jesus’ suffering paid our total sin debt -- past, present, and future. Eternal life is eternal, everlasting, never-ending, and cant be lost, given back, or sinned away. Works of righteousness, works of the Law, or works of the sacraments do not get us saved, keep us saved, or prove that we are saved. Salvation is by faith alone in the promises of God, not by a faith that works, nor faith plus works. It is an "irrevocable" free gift. Our prayer for those that have a different gospel is as Paul’s prayer in Romans 10 :1-2;

As for the verses you quoted in regards to baptism--again, in context are not water. It is simple- if water pays for your sins as Luther taught, it was not faith in CHrist alone. It makes the Bible contridict itself by saying in one breath it is faith in the blood of Christ, and in the next saying water paid for your sins. The gospel is simple. The blood pays. God gives the believer the holy spirit AND THEN you should be baptized-- not that you will, but that you should...

Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you *with the Holy Spirit* and fire." not water...

Teaching water baptism as the initiating saving sacrament is an error strengthened by the incorrect interpretation of the word "baptism" in certain verses of the Bible. "Baptism" can refer to "teaching," "Holy Spirit," "blood," "fire," etc., and only refers to "water" if the context or syntax indicates "water" Some examples of verses commonly mistaken are Mk. 16:16 and Acts 2:38, 41

Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Notice that it is the lack of "belief," not lack of "baptism" that condemns)

Acts 2:38,41 "Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized [taught] in the name [not in the water] of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' ...So then, those who had received his word [believed what they were taught] were [water and/or Spirit] baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."

It is late, and I am tired...While I am sure you mean the best, you are inadvertantly adding the work of baptism to the blood of Christ paying for your sins, as many people do, because it is the way we were taught and who really ever wants to say "Hey, maybe I'm wrong on this..."

try2bAsunbeam said...

I forgot to mention Acts 10:43-44 where it says that the people where listening to Paul and while he was still talking, the holy Spirit fell on those who had believed the gospel. Vs 47 makes it crystal clear that the people had *already* received the spirit and THEN wanted to be baptized.

Eph. 1:13: In Him, after listening to message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.(*now* this person should be baptized)

Acts 10 :47 Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who *have* recieved the Holy Spirit just as we did...

You said that one does not NEED to be baptized, but yet you said water baptism is how we receive the Holy Spirit. Then, in conjuction with Romans 8:9, where it says "however, you are not int he flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you, but if anyone does not have the spirit of CHrist, he does not belong to Him." So the Bible says if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you are not in Christ. You said you don't need to be baptized, but if you (according to what you have said) do not get baptized, you will not recieve the Holy Spirit and therefore would not be in Christ and therefore would not go to heaven. What that boils down to is again that you are saying that it is by water baptism a person is ultimately saved.

I am not a Baptist. I am a Christian.

srr1954 said...

You said " is the lack of "belief", not lack of baptism that condemns." You also said "Infants can believe?? That's ridiculus!" Logically then you must believe that all infants will go to hell because they cannot believe.

try2bAsunbeam said...

No response to the any thing else? No response to Acts, to Luther's obvious "saving waters"?
Instead, put words in my mouth. On the contrary, I believe anyone who can not possibly believe does not go hell, but to heaven. There is an age of accountabilty, when exactly that is, I do not know. I do know that when the people of Isreal were not allowed in the promise land, because of their disbelief, the ones 20 and under where, by God's grace allowed in.

srr1954 said...

I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I read your last response very carefully. You said that anyone who can not possibly believe goes to heaven. Does that include those who have never heard the gospel? Aren't you contradicting yourself when you say a lack of belief condemns, but then there are those who cannot believe who are saved? If that is true, we would be doing infants and small children a huge favor by simply letting them die, rather than risk having them reach the "age of accountability" and become unbelievers. Same with those who have never heard the gospel. We should not tell them about it because if they CANNOT believe they will be saved. And where is this "age of accountability" taught in scripture? Isn't that adding to scripture: belief in Christ for salvation OR God's grace for those who cannot believe? Whether you know it or not, this is Baptist theology. I have heard it all before. Believe what you want, I will not respond to anything else. I will confess to you that I am saved by the shed blood of Christ. If you make that same confession, I recognize you as a fellow believer, even though we hold to different theology. Therefore, in Christian love, I sincerely wish you well, and God's blessings on you and your family.

+In Christ Jesus+


try2bAsunbeam said...

When I said can not possibly believe, I mean incapable of it, as an infant, or someone who is mentally incapable--everyone else, no matter where they are, is held accountable. Seek and you shall find. As for the common question of the man in the jungle, which doesn't really apply in this day and age, according to Roamns would be judged according to the knowledge he has. When he looks at a blade of grass and thinks "wow, there must be something greater than I that made this...", that would be what he'd be judged by. Although, I *personally* believe that God would bring the gospel to anyone who really wanted to know Him. (no scripture to back that thought)
I had a person literally chase me down today to yell at me about my bumper sticker. Boy did that ever seem Christianly...At least you are rational and willing to dialog, or at least *were* willing.
Having been on both sides of the fence, believing the same as you and now understanding that eternal life is really eternal and that all is all and that when Christ died, it was for all my sins, I could never go back to believing my salvation is based on anything other than the finished work of Christ. You say in one breath that it is all Christ and then in the next that the water saves...It just doesn't add up. Yes, I suppoose we could continue to go back and forth about these little details like the infant thing, but it still boils down to my gospel being Christ alone and yours as Christ and water. Maybe even adding repentence, maybe confession, maybe even the Lord's table as well, I don't know. Regardless, there are only two kinds of religions in the world--doing and done. While I am of the done religion, you seem to be of the doing.
Take Matthew 7:21...I'll paraphrase a bit for the sake of time. Lord Lord didn't we do this and this and this in YOUR name and He responds, get away from Me , I *never* knew you, you who practice iniquity. Yes, they worked for God, thought He knew them, but He didn't know them ever! He saw their sin still, because while they accepted Him as their God and worked for Him, they hadn't accepted God's full payment for their sins-- they were doing the works to get to heaven--that's what makes the blood not do it's job, so to speak. In Galatians, it says that if you think you need to keep the laws (including water baptism or circumsicion, 10 commandements, sacrifial laws, dietary laws, any orders by God) to go to heaven, you need to keep the *entire* law. James 2:10 says if you DO keep the whole law and yet stumble in one itty bitty point, you becaome guilty of the whole law. I deserve to go to hell--always will--but I don't have to go because my debt has been paid.
You say it is Baptist jargon, but they believe that you can never drink where the drunkeness is the sin, and now-a-days- many Baptists believe they can lose their salvation as well. I actually thought some of what you said sounded a lot like Calvinism rather than what Luther taught. It would be so much easier to just pat you on the back and wish you well and I do sincerely wish you well, but if you think that there is *anything* you must do after understanding that God paid the debt for your sins (and that's all there is to the gospel,) I can not, and Biblically, should not call you my brother in Christ. I can be wrong in most every other doctrine under the sun, but when it comes to knowing I did nothing to get my salvation, keep or prove my salvation--I don't know what to say...that is one thing in this life I am absolutely positive of...And you know Steve, when it comes to the end...I was baptized, I do go to church, and I do most of the things the way I should, (according to others--I personally think I have a long way to go before God says to me well done)...but if I am wrong and you are right, I *will* be in heaven according to what you believe, but if *I* am right and you are wrong, you won't be. And both of us can not be right as we believe two totally different things. Two different Jesus'. Think about it.
In agape Love,

Anonymous said...

If faith is a gift of God, and faith is a requirement for salvation, only God saves. If I believe, baptized or not, it's because he's given me the faith to believe. It's all up to Him.

Or, is that wrong?

Anonymous said...

Interesting discussion----
"Think about it."
Who is Jesus.

Anonymous said...

you are looking for Scripture to point to water that saves, well I can point to a few but let me leave you with this one from Jesus to Nicodemus.
John 3
Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again (or born from above) and then explains what that means by saying that you must be born of water and the Spirit in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven.
You jumped and said lutherans say Christ plus water...well first baptism is still salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...but here we have Christ himself saying water for salvation...hmmm. that is interesting.

Joe said...

I made that last comment about John 3. It was annonymous because I don't have any other online id. I now see you can write in a name. My name is Joe

try2bAsunbeam said...

Thanks for the name to go with the post! *giggles*
You asked who is Jesus? In reference to John 3?
I don't understand...

try2bAsunbeam said... I understand...found your post in my spam folder. If you read that section of scripture again, Nicodemus is referring to the birthing waters. Verse 4 says how can a person return to his mother's womb. This is not referring to water baptism as Luther taught. The context is not of water baptism but of the spritiual re-birth/ being born-again.

1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"

Joe said...

You would be correct that Nicodemus is referring to natural birth...he doesn't get it. Nicodemus never mentions water, Jesus does. Jesus corrects Nicodemus and points out that he is not talking about natural birth but he explains that be born again means being born of water and the Spirit. Historically (meaning long before Luther-including many of the early church fathers) understood this verse to refer to Baptism. this is not a Lutheran invention. You are letting your preconcieved notions and anger toward lutheranism cloud your ability to interpret the Scriptures. You may want to read John 3 over and over again. I also think you very much misunderstand the Lutheran understanding of baptism.
Other verses for your enjoyment:
Romans 6-baptism equals death to old Adam and birth to new life in Christ (sure sounds like being saved to me); 1 Peter 3:21-baptism now saves you.
I am not trying to be antagonistic or mean but you must understand that you are broadcasting your anti-lutheran views on the world wide web and are bound to receive criticism for it and with the use of Scripture, rebuked and corrected. God bless.

try2bAsunbeam said...

Thank you for your civality. I have read the scriptures over and over, not just this one.

If what you say is true and these verses are referrring to baptism, you are not really saved by faith alone, are you? You are saying it is faith alone in one breath and then saying it is by water in the next.

Knowing that God says that salvation is by faith alone, you MUST conclude that the baptisms in these verses are NOT water baptism as the sacrament practiced today. if it were, you are saying God in a liar by saying it is not by faith alone in the blood paying for your sins.

I have no hatred towards anyone or their doctrine. I don't care to be judged as having such hatred either. I have not said anything hateful towards anyone. You have every right to believe what you like.

Anyone who adds to the blood of Christ as payment in full for their sins is not saved. It does not matter what they call themselves. You call me hateful for saying that; I call it loving.

Someone said I was spitting out Baptist doctrine before, but you all are spitting out Catholic or Lutheran or Augustine or whatever, whoever...convinced these people *must* be right rather than looking at the Bible as the simple book it is. Black and white is black and white.

Again, the water is the first birth, the natural birth whereas the re-birth or being born again is through faith as the other scriptures I gave clearly showed. You are saying that the water is water baptism because that is what you want it to say, but not even one time in this portion of scripture is the word baptism mentioned. You are adding that, probably because it is what you were taught. Maybe you need to read it over and stop adding to what God is saying. More importantly, people need to stop adding to the gospel because unless your faith is 100% in the blood of Christ to pay for your sins, you will be paying for them yourself, as would I had I not listened to someone who shared with me these same scriptures (and more).

You said I don't know what Luther believed, but I have read his writings, have even shared what he believed and people keep saying it's not what he believed. He wrote what he wrote to make sure everyone understood what he believed.

I am aware of what/where I wrote and I have had no problems defending the Word of God. The scriptures that I have posted still have not been refuted. Instead of anyone answering the questions I asked and replying to Luther's words, people run onto rabbit trails to try and "catch" me in something else. It is no different than when I show a Jehovah Witness Jesus isn't Micheal the Archangel; they try to divert to something else.

Satan loves the fact that everyone believes what Luther says instead of relying on the Word of God. Satan is estatic. I, on the other hand, am not angry, but am truly saddened by the lack of desire to look into this. As I said over and over before, if I had not been on both sides of the fence, I could just pat people on the back and say "see you up there", but I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that the people posting here are adding to the gospel.

Anonymous said...

Looking into scripture--

Why was Jesus baptized?

try2bAsunbeam said...

I could be wrong, but in John 1 29-34 shows Jesus' water baptism to show who He was, that He was the one of which John the Baptist spoke of. John said he baptized with water but Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit. Mark and Matthew says Jesus would baptize not with water but with the Holy Spirit and fire...An interesting verse in Matt 3:15 says after John says he shouldn't baptize Jesus with water because he needed to be baptized by Jesus (with the spirit?)--"Permit it at this time, for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." So, to fufill the Word of God?
I know in the old testamnet the Holy Spirit came and went from people, whereas after Jesus was resurrected, the Holy Spirit was left to indwell and live in the believer. In John, I think, it says that the Holy Spirit remained with Jesus from that moment on and He worked His miricales through that power. Because Jesus as God in the flesh, had emptied Himself of His powers...(my mind is wandering on a rabbit trail...)

try2bAsunbeam said...

Pardon my spelling errors, I am typing rather quickly to get my thoughts down...

Karl Hess said...

I don't know if anyone said this to you already, but let me take a shot. I should warn you that I probably won't be back to continue this debate with you. It's not that your arguments are irrefutable. It's that they've been refuted many times and I lack the interest in trying to refute them again. My grandfather was a missionary in a church that believes as you do, that baptism is an empty symbol, etc.

By the way, if you really are interested in questioning your beliefs against scripture, I recommend that you read Luther's treatise against the anabaptists, "Against Rebaptism." It can be found in Timothy Lull's anthology "Luther's Basic Theological Writings."

What you seem to be confused about is the difference between the means by which God gives faith in Jesus and the redemption that Jesus provided and won.

Jesus won redemption for the world (not some, but all people) on the cross, by the shedding of His blood. There is no further work to be done. All sins have been atoned for and forgiven on the cross. It is finished.

But that work of Christ does us no good if we do not believe in it--if we do not take hold of it by faith.

However, faith is not something we do. "It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith is created by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. Paul says this in Romans chapter 10: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You can't believe in Christ and be saved without the Gospel.

Here is where you get hung up, though. You accuse Lutherans of saying that baptism is an additional thing that saves us apart from the cross. We don't believe that. We believe that the Word of God brings us Christ's finished work on the cross, and creates faith in us, so that Christ's work on the cross is our own.

On the other hand, you believe that the Word of God comes and tells you the information about what Christ did so that you can do the work of accepting it.

Scripture teaches nothing like that. There is no age of accountability in scripture. There is no time when we are able, of our own free will, to accept Jesus. Rather, there is "no one righteous, no, not one." "The way of peace they do not know." Scripture says (1 Peter), "You have been born again...through the word of God." God's word gives us faith in Jesus.

That's what baptism does. It is the "washing with water by the word" (Ephesians 5). The word in the water gives faith. Baptism also joins us with Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6). It is a means by which the Holy Spirit gives faith in Christ. It is not a good work that saves us.

On the contrary, you believe that the final word in salvation belongs to you--that you do the good work of accepting Jesus--a work which Scripture plainly says that you are not able to do. And you live the rest of your life trusting in this work for your salvation, looking back to it, referring to it for certainty of salvation. That's works righteousness.

The apostles had another way of evangelizing. They preached repentance and the forgiveness of sins, and whenever people were cut to the heart and asked, "What must we do to be saved," they were directed not to an altar call or to a decision, but to Christ's finished work on the cross and always, always, to Baptism. So Paul says that Ananias told him, "Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Not, "Hey, Paul, remember Jesus showed up to you in a vision on the road." But, "Be baptized and wash your sins away." (Acts 22:16)

try2bAsunbeam said...

If the scriptures I quoted are so refrutable, why isn't anyone refuting them? Please flatter me.

You misquote basic english grammar in Eph. 2:8,9. As I clearly explained earlier, the gift is the grace, not the faith. "through faith" is a prepositional phrase modifying how you get the grace which is the gift...

I also never once said that it is a decision that saves, most people who say they have made a decision are deciding they will serve God, and usually have their faith in their works.

I do not. My faith is solely in the Word of God and in Him promise that He paid for my sins.

To say that Paul ALWAYS ALWAYS directed them to baptism is poor as well. He said that He thanked God he didn't baptize some men. he also said he did NOT come to baptize but to preach the gospel. i Cor. 1:14-17 Ahh and as I reead futher... vs. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but for us who are being saved it is the power of God. You don't preach the cross. You preach baptism into Luther...vs. 21 God was well-pleased with the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe (not are baptized)

You think that every time you see the word "baptize" it is water, and it just isn't. Even when Christ was at the Last supper and said whoever dipped the bread in the sop with him would betray him--the word "dip" is the same word "baptize"....Wasn't water there, was it? Most of the scriptures you quoted are referring to the Holy Spirit baptism-- the one Jesus gave vs. the water John gave.

I don't believe that baptism is empty, but I also do not believe it is when I recieve the Holy Spirit, as Luther taught, because I would rather trust in God, not man. I Cor. 2:5. I also claim to know nothing more than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I Cor. 2:2

The gospel is what we are saved by. I cor. 15: 1-4 says "The gospel is..." In a nutshell that Jesus died, was buried and rose again--no mention of baptism.

What you may not have decerned in reading the other responses is that the people who are answering me are saying in one breath it is the blood, but in the next it is the sprinkling of water that saves them. Or that the water gives them the Holy Spirit, or that they can't possibly believe in God without recieving the Holy Spirit first. All these are neat ideas but all are contrary to Scripture.
I firmly believe one should be baptized, but I do not receive the Holy Spirit then, and I must already understand the Gospel before hand (which is when I recieve the Holy spirit-Eph 1:13 "After listenign tot he message fo truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed with the H.S. of promise").
The disciples also had a differnt way of baptizing, eh? "go down into the water" Acts. 8:38

You also said I "believe that the Word of God comes and tells you the information about what Christ did so that you can do the work of accepting it"

I never said that. I believe if I seek I will find.

John 5:24 Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, HAS eternal life, and does NOT come into judgement but has passed out of death into life...

vs. 39 You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me and you are UNWILLING to come to me that you may have life.

God gave us a free will to believe or not believe in His sacrifice which paid once for all. If you want to add water baptism to it, go ahead, but you are those peopel in Matt. 7 that worked for the Lord all their days and yet never knew Him so that He never knew them. Maybe you don't care. Maybe you would rather think that my faith is a work but your water baptism (which requires obviously physical work on your behalf) is not a work... You can lead a horse to water (of the Word), but you can't amke them drink...on the other hand, the one who is thristy will drink...

One more verse. Acts 8:16 says "For He (the Holy Spirit) had not fallen upon any of them, they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Anonymous said...

Interesting choice of verses -
little confused is the topic baptism, judgement, eternal life, Scriptural interpretation, or something else.

What is original sin?

try2bAsunbeam said...

"is the topic baptism, judgement, eternal life, Scriptural interpretation, or something else."

I think it's a little of all these topics. It depends who's talking to me and seeing as most people sign as anonymous, I don't know who anyone is to even know if the same person has left a comment twice.

I think, for me, the focus is the gospel and the fact that people are adding to it. Even though it seems to be unknowingly. I see it as dealing with the different gospel,(gal. 1:6) distorted gospel (gal.1:7) or contrary gospel (gal. 1:9) that Paul spoke of in Galatians.The book of Galatians was written because of the false brethren that had snuck into the church to take thetrue brethren out of the liberty in CHrist and put them under the bondage of the law or works. (gal. 2:4) And it wasn't that they were completely obvious in their distortion. They had a gospel WITH Christ, just not THE gospel of Christ. Gal. 2:14 says they just weren't straightforward with the gospel.

At one point the conversation here was specifically about baptism but everyone who has posted is so stubborn to opening their eyes to the obvious additions they have been taught. I'm not even saying it's their fault. I grew up being taught the same things. It was what we were taught. Every time I point to scripture that contridicts what they have said or what Luther taught, they go off on a rabbit trail, end the conversation, or disappear all together. Or they go to some other place and call me a "lost cause". At least one person on here I know is an elder in their church! I am nothing...a mere sheep...although I am in a good church with great Pastors who actually teach the Word of God. A person can't find that much anywhere anymore.

What is original sin? It is the sin which was imputed on everyone through Adam's sin of eating the apple that God told him not to. So, now because of that every person since then has been born "with their eyes open" as well, having a sin nature. There is not one righteous. Everyone needs a savior. So, God became a man and was that savior but it only applies to those who accept His payment in full for their sins.

Flatter me for a moment:
You are drowning in a pond and I jump in to save you. You would've died for sure without me. If the next day you are with your friends and you tell them, "Yeah, Becca saved me, but I had to kick just a teeny bit", What is that saying? It's saying I did not save you, you saved yourself. That is what people are saying when they say Christ died for me but I still have to...(fill in the blank with whatever you like).

I'm sorry for confusing you. I just type whatever comes to mind. I don't have nearly the grasp on Scripture I could have and sometimes I don't communicate in the clearest way.

Karl Hess said...

I didn't read through the whole of your response because you really missed the main point. The question is this: Does the blood of Jesus save you, or the Word of God?

When you start talking about free will it's obvious the answer is "neither," but let's leave that aside for the moment.

If you say, "The blood of Jesus, and not the word of God," you contradict Scripture and deny "the word of the Cross" which you say I don't preach (but you do.) Paul says, "The Gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes." Peter says, "You have been born the living and abiding word of God."

So then, the Word of God saves you. It brings Christ's atonement to you. Without it you could not believe and be saved. The Word of God saves you.

Of course, once you grant that, then you can no longer make your specious argument that we are adding baptism as a work to the salvation that Jesus accomplished. Clearly, that is nonsensical. By the same argument you accuse Paul and Peter of adding the Word of God as an additional saving element besides Christ's atonement.

No, the word brings Christ's work to you and makes it yours, giving you faith. That's exactly what Baptism is. Paul calls it "the washing with water by the word." Because it is the word of God in the water, Peter says, "Baptism now saves you." Not that Baptism is the place where Christ atoned for your sins, but rather the place where He works faith.

So, how do you live with the fact that two writers of the New Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, says that the Word of God saves us? Clearly they are trying to add something to Jesus' atonement.

Karl Hess said...

The fact that Jesus says that a person may come to Him by no means implies that they have the power to do it, which He says again and again in the Gospel you quoted.

"No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

"You did not choose me, but I chose you."

Or, "No man can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (or born from above.)" This is a strange kind of birth, where you get to choose for yourself whether you want to be born or not.

Of course, nobody chooses to be born. That's why it's something that God must do. And Paul says this again and again.

"There is no one righteous, no not one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks after God."

No one seeks after God, says Paul, quoting the Psalms. But you think that you do seek after God. Why do you think that? Clearly you didn't get that thought from God.

As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins. (Dead people can't choose to be alive, anymore than babies can choose to be born.)

The carnal mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to the law of God, nor indeed can it. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Unless, that is, they exercise their free will to stop being in the flesh.)

Dear lady, I understand that you are trying to contend for the Gospel, but by inserting free will into this you actually undo the Gospel. Free will is a foundation of sand. Our salvation is based upon God's grace--His choice for us--that's why it is certain.

try2bAsunbeam said...

John 1:1 says in the beginning was the Word and the was with God and the Word was God...vs 14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the the Father full of grace and truth...

The Word of God is Christ. Christ saved me with His blood. The bible did not die for my sins. CHrist did. Seems pretty simple to me.

Romans 10:14 How will they call on Him whom they have not believed and how will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
(if God comes to people for them to be saved in the way you have descibed, no one needs to preach, do they? Why in the world did the apostles put their lives on the line when God would've saved who He wanted to save without them?)

In Genesis 4: 6-7, Cain is asked, “Why are you angry?” and encouraged to “do well”. God also tells Cain that “sin is crouching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.” If Cain is “totally depraved” and unable to come to God, why does God tell him to do things he can’t do, i.e. “do well” and “master sin”?

God declares in Ezekiel 18:23, “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?” Why would God tell the wicked man to “turn from his wicked ways” if he is “totally depraved” and cannot do anything spiritually good?

Why would Jesus and John the Baptist tell people to “repent” if they couldn’t change their minds? In Matthew 23:37 Jesus says (referring to Jerusalem), “I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” Notice Jesus’ sovereign will does not override the will of the Jews – they could have chosen Him. They were not unable, but “unwilling”.

Why would Paul, in Acts 17:27, publicly preach to the Greeks in Athens concerning every man in every nation “that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”

Then Paul says clearly in verse 30, “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent….” ALL! EVERYWHERE!

Jesus, in Revelation 22:17, says, “…let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” This is a salvation call for people to exercise their free will and choose salvation, if they wish.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden they received “the knowledge of good and evil”. Nowhere does the Bible say that they became totally depraved. In fact, in Romans 1:28, we see “depravity” happening to people as the third and final step of their rejecting the knowledge of God, which, according to Romans 1: 19 and 20, has been placed within the hearts of all human beings.

I also find it very rude that you did not read what I wrote and then bash back at me with again, what you know is right.

If you say that God picks and chooses who will be saved, He is also picking and choosing who He did not not save. Sick. You now are saying God didn't die for the whole world, but just the special ones and of course, you assume, He picked you. Why? Because your such a nice guy and my dear sweet Grandma isn't? MY God died for the whole world. MY God is the God of the Bible whose grace extends to all who willfully believe it.

try2bAsunbeam said...

The riches of God’s love are totally corrupted by the idea that God only loves a few – the chosen or the elect, and has no desire at all to see everyone saved. Even those limited in their Bible knowledge are usually familiar with John 3:16, which states, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” Verse 17 goes on to say, “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.” These verses make it obvious that God wants the world saved, yet Calvinists insist these verses are only referring to the “world” of the elect. That is absolute nonsense.

In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus says to His disciples, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been (Holy Spirit) baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” Notice the “alls” and notice what saves—faith—to believe or not to believe. The choice is man’s.

In II Peter 3:9, God’s patience is pointed out and Peter states that God is “…not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.” Notice the words any and all. God wants all to believe. All can believe, and those who believe the gospel will be saved

try2bAsunbeam said...

The riches of God’s love are totally corrupted by the idea that God only loves a few – the chosen or the elect, and has no desire at all to see everyone saved. Even those limited in their Bible knowledge are usually familiar with John 3:16, which states, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” Verse 17 goes on to say, “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.” These verses make it obvious that God wants the world saved, yet Calvinists insist these verses are only referring to the “world” of the elect. That is absolute nonsense.

In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus says to His disciples, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been (Holy Spirit) baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” Notice the “alls” and notice what saves—faith—to believe or not to believe. The choice is man’s.

In II Peter 3:9, God’s patience is pointed out and Peter states that God is “…not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.” Notice the words any and all. God wants all to believe. All can believe, and those who believe the gospel will be saved

try2bAsunbeam said...

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Notice, however, when verse 45 is added, we see that the Bible teaches us how God draws people to Jesus Christ:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Karl Hess said...

You still haven't understood what I'm saying.

It is necessary for Christ to be preached in order for His saving work to become ours by faith. You clearly agree with this.

Thus, the Word saves you. Paul says it saves you. Peter says it saves you.

So obviously, they are adding something to salvation--according to your logic.

Because when Lutherans say that Baptism saves--in the same sense that the Word saves--you say they are adding to the work of Christ.

We no more add to the work of Christ than Paul, Peter, and you when all three agree that it is necessary for the word to be preached, and that the word of Christ gives salvation.

I'm glad to debate all the other points we're talking about here on the basis of God's word, but I want to make sure you see this point above before we go any further.

I'm sorry you think it's rude that I don't read all of your posts, but I kind of think that it's rude that you presume to call the pure Gospel all sorts of names without even clearly understanding it.

The other arguments about free will we can talk about later. But first, do you understand that the Word is a means of grace--that is to say, that you cannot have faith in Christ's blood without the preaching of the good news? And if so, do you understand how it is hypocritical to accuse Lutherans of adding the work of baptism to the cross, when you (and Peter and Paul in the bible) insist that the preaching of God's Word saves?

Karl Hess said...

One other small note: I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in limited atonement. I am a Lutheran. I believe that Jesus Christ has redeemed the entire world with His blood.

But please, let's deal with the issue of whether or not Baptism is works righteousness before talking about election, the bondage of the will, etc.

try2bAsunbeam said...

I started a new post with this...

ChRlswfe4Jesus said...

I am posting because I am finally replying to my original response. LOL is 2 months late ok?

The salvation not probation. Confused me for a long time. LOL I even ask my minister dad and he could not figure it out. LOL I have know you for how long and was to embarrassed to discuss it. I must say it has clicked today as to the meaning. I can see how it can be simple to understand yet I can understand the confusion.

I also want to add I have missed some good discussion.

Here is a bit of testimony. Becca and I have had this discussion and I do enjoy reading it again with different wordings. Having had this discussion has been a help in talking with others. Praise God for leading me to someone who not only has strong convictions and is not afraid to speak/write them. Thank you for the friendship. Dawn


The Maker of all human beings is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart. This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units. This defect has been technically termed "Subsequential Internal Non-Morality," or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

Some other symptoms include:
1. Loss of direction

2. Foul vocal emissions

3. Amnesia of origin

4. Lack of peace and joy

5. Selfish or violent behavior

6. Depression or confusion in the mental Component

7. Fearfulness

8. Idolatry

9. Rebellion

The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this SIN defect. The Repair Technician, Jesus, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.

The number to call for repair in all areas is:

Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure. Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component.

No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control

Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (Believers' Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded.

DANGER: The human being units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace. The SIN defect will not be permitted to enter Heaven so as to prevent contamination of that facility.

Thank you for your attention!

Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important recall notice, and you may contact the Father any time by "kneemail".